Curse

just call me jimmy · Apr 23, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

My Guild has reached below rank 600, and now we are facing more co-ordinated spike builds (Ranger,Air,and Blood). I have been tryin to get my team to work together more, but i am having a hard time explaining everyones main jobs when facing them. If anyone has any suggestions that will help me explain better I would appreciate it.
Our Team Build.
W/E - Sword
W/E or W/N - Hammer
Mesmer/Elle
Ranger/Mes or Elle/Monk
Necro/Monk or Elle/Monk
3-Monk Mesmers

Excal · Apr 23, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Heres a quick tip: Spike teams don't do any damage outside there spike, so use fertile vital blessing or w/e to get your hp up higher than they can spike which completly shuts them down because their spike is there only damage. You should also split and I suggest sending 2 warriors and a monk to try ganking the lord.

Patrograd · Apr 23, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

OK, well we play what is I think a reasonably effective ranger spike build, and I will list the common counters to our build.

The very top teams, probably the top 15 or so, will bring ALOT of interrupts, and will basically get right into our faces right from the off, and will prevent us from getting off any spikes at all. Skills like spirit of failure, price of failure, diversion also aid the disruption. These teams also bring skills like distortion and shields up for more passive defence, but in general terms they will simultaneously shut down our offence while also maintaining their damage. These teams will ALWAYS beat us. Watch EW for a great example of a team that deals effectively with spike without it affecting their overall aim. They will NEVER split against us.

The next group of teams, probably from about rank 20 to rank 100, will see that we are spike and will adopt the split method of countering us immediately, before we even engage, which very rarely works. The better ones will quickly see that it isnt working and will come back to fight 8v8 and work at disrupting us. The sooner these teams abandon their split the better the chance they have at winning. Spike teams are generally very weak defensively (ours is for sure) relying on the power of their spikes to take out enemy damage dealers before they can get to work. You have to make that work in your favour.

Then the next set of teams, down to probably rank 500, will try and take us on 8v8 but not have the skills to effectively shut us down, and after taking alot of Dp will split, which again, will not work for them unless we mess up.

After rank 500 teams generally take us on 8v8, lose, turtle and lose.

In general, the only way to effectively take on a spike team is to stop the spike by interrupting or by using skills that make that particular spike less effective. Most spikes are pretty tight numerically, and taking even one spiker out of the equation will give your infuser a chance. Fertile will not help *at all* as it will just get killed, splitting works against a decent spike team very rarely - I would go so far as to say that we are hoping that you will split as we are built to counter this tactic. We only lose to split when we make an error of timing, which can happen of course.

So, spread interrupts around your team, and get used to the different rythms of the different kind of spikes, so you know when you need to be using offensive skills and when you need to be using defensive interrupts. Ranger spike will hit you about every 5 seconds, ele spike every 8-10 seconds. In between spikes get your damage in, important not to forget this bit, and when you sense the next spike is coming get in tight and interrupt it.

This season we have lost to EW, who got right into our faces and beat us in less than four minutes, to SaaT who ran a disrupt heavy build and stuck with us 8v8 amd had us on the backfoot the whole game, and to someone else I forget now where we made a series of errors against their split, and thats all we have lost. So for me, disruption is the key thing. Interrupts ftw, split ftl

just call me jimmy · Apr 23, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Awesome help!! thankyou both.
Also Patrograd, great sugestions!!

Vindexus · Apr 23, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

OK, well we play what is I think a reasonably effective ranger spike build, and I will list the common counters to our build.

The very top teams, probably the top 15 or so, will bring ALOT of interrupts, and will basically get right into our faces right from the off, and will prevent us from getting off any spikes at all. Skills like spirit of failure, price of failure, diversion also aid the disruption. These teams also bring skills like distortion and shields up for more passive defence, but in general terms they will simultaneously shut down our offence while also maintaining their damage. These teams will ALWAYS beat us. Watch EW for a great example of a team that deals effectively with spike without it affecting their overall aim. They will NEVER split against us.

The next group of teams, probably from about rank 20 to rank 100, will see that we are spike and will adopt the split method of countering us immediately, before we even engage, which very rarely works. The better ones will quickly see that it isnt working and will come back to fight 8v8 and work at disrupting us. The sooner these teams abandon their split the better the chance they have at winning. Spike teams are generally very weak defensively (ours is for sure) relying on the power of their spikes to take out enemy damage dealers before they can get to work. You have to make that work in your favour.

Then the next set of teams, down to probably rank 500, will try and take us on 8v8 but not have the skills to effectively shut us down, and after taking alot of Dp will split, which again, will not work for them unless we mess up.

Can I ask why splitting doesn't work against you guys? It is a viable tactic against spike after all.

wheel · Apr 23, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

check out this thread, too.
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121179

Patrograd · Apr 23, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Can I ask why splitting doesn't work against you guys? It is a viable tactic against spike after all.

Well, i cant speak for caster based spike teams, but in our case we build in alot of mobility and alot of ground control and snares. Anyone planning on playing spike needs to be aware that the other team may well split, and they need to be looking for it on the radar immediately and act aggressively to counter it. We prep for the split in every battle by taking out front gate NPCs early, and by keeping an eagle eye on the thief, as he will be first target the moment the other team starts to split.

From my perspective, if you split, then it means that we no longer need to worry about half of your team, because all they are doing typically is running the flag, we can ignore them, and as long as we cap within 2 mins then we have beaten that group. The only group that poses a threat is the one attacking our base, and because they are reduced in number, there is less damage, less disruption for us to worry about, and these squads will almost always make no effort whatsoever to actually hurt us as they are focussed on our NPCs. As my experience is that disruption beats us pretty easily, a team that isnt trying to disrupt us is a team that has already lost mentally. They have accepted that they cant beat the spike.

All we have to do is to engineer a situation where we get that group 8v4 or 8v5 or whatever the split is. Given high mobility (we use charge and multiple copies of dodge) and well timed ground control from skills like deep freeze and gale, we can almost always engineer these situations on most maps (Druids is a royal pain, but otherwise its easy enough). Its then a question of whether we can take advantage and kill at least one of the gank team.

Often we run these loops around the map several times, killing two or three each time. In between, with these guys dead in our base, we can run the flag and take out NPCs to even out the score on that front.

In the end, the skills you need to beat ranger spike are the skills you need anyway. Lots of interrupts, blind, weakness, diversion, blackout, KDs, distortion. A well timed diversion or distracting onto a dual shot, or onto a lightning orb, or an obsidian flame will severly hamper that spike team for as long as the diversion lasts. Just one diversion that the spiker doesnt pick up or cant cancel for one reason or another can win you the game if it is timed well enough.

The aim of spike is to take your monks out of the game, make them obsolete (not through killing them, as monks should be the last spike targets, just through damaging faster than they can heal), the best counter I have seen and the one used by every top guild we have ever played against is to bring those monks back into the game, allow them the chance to heal over the damage, and the only way to do that is through disabling the spike in one way or another.

Dzan · Apr 24, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

From my perspective, if you split, then it means that we no longer need to worry about half of your team, because all they are doing typically is running the flag, we can ignore them, and as long as we cap within 2 mins then we have beaten that group. The only group that poses a threat is the one attacking our base, and because they are reduced in number, there is less damage, less disruption for us to worry about, and these squads will almost always make no effort whatsoever to actually hurt us as they are focussed on our NPCs. As my experience is that disruption beats us pretty easily, a team that isnt trying to disrupt us is a team that has already lost mentally. They have accepted that they cant beat the spike.

You say its an admission that they accept they cant beat the spike, I don't see why realizing you can't beat the spike and at least trying to adapt is a bad thing. I don't see the point in NOT splitting when you make an accurate conclusion that you cant win 8v8. I've played matches against the Zaishen when their spike was hitting instantaneously and even killing through a Cry, at that point fighting them 8v8 is, in my opinion, an admission of defeat.

A balanced team who cant beat the spike for whatever reason and splits is usually playing for VoD, hoping to get enough of an npc advantage to give them enough morale to make it happen in VoD, hence the focus on npcs. Sometimes the gamble works and you get a very favorable VoD situation and sometimes it doesn't, but even if it doesn't it was your best chance at a victory, and there is nothing wrong with trying to play to win.

That said, after the battle its time to look at the build and see how you can modify it to beat spike 8v8.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Apr 24, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

My guild stays in around the 100-150s. We run rspike during gvgs. Here is a short list of what is used to countering us.

1. Splitting (Fire isle ftw)
2. Blurred vision/blinding flash
3. Any interrupts (F*ck CoF)
4. A well timed diversion

In short, anything that disrupts the spike. Most spike teams will have the Fire Isle map, so if they are playing at home, splitting is not an option.

All the Evil · Apr 24, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

well even on the fire island thing you can just run through the enemys team (usually they dont bodyblock) und split that way
a mate of mine is playing rspike in gvg, and mostly they react on a split with jusdt a quick rush. the left 4 enemies should be no problem, fast kills, und in their base you should be faste since you got 8 ppl (and not a 4ppl split)
somehow, if it works the gvgs takes about 3 mins i think =)
interrupt works pretty good, but mostly they'll be able to spike even if you take one spiker out, and stand devided so cry of frustration just hits one (know what i mean?! damn english ;D) so you'd need a lot of disruption...
at all, versus rspike shields up is imoh the very best, even if you cant use the 50% block you got a huge armor increasement
versus elespike, hm didnt see that very often, and i think there its done with one interrupter and a protspirit
my 2 cents here =)

Patrograd · Apr 24, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

You say its an admission that they accept they cant beat the spike, I don't see why realizing you can't beat the spike and at least trying to adapt is a bad thing. I don't see the point in NOT splitting when you make an accurate conclusion that you cant win 8v8. I've played matches against the Zaishen when their spike was hitting instantaneously and even killing through a Cry, at that point fighting them 8v8 is, in my opinion, an admission of defeat.

Right, but this is a weakness in your build, and you splitting is adapting because your build cant cope, whereas you should have the skills in your team, as a matter of course, because these are the skills that win games anyway, to take them on 8v8. The skills that beat good spike teams are the same skills that beat good balanced teams. if you are having to split against decent spike teams, then the odds are that you are also losing to the top balanced teams, and it may just be a matter of bringing the right skills to solve both issues.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 24, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

As I have told repeatedly to people I know. Spike have no future, if they can't hold the flag.

Dzan · Apr 24, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

if you are having to split against decent spike teams, then the odds are that you are also losing to the top balanced teams, and it may just be a matter of bringing the right skills to solve both issues.

So your solution when faced with a good spike team you can't beat 8v8- for whatever reason- is to sit there and take your beating? I agree with after the match analyzing what went wrong and making build adjustments, but during the match you can't just sit there and play to lose, you have to do what gives you the greatest chance to win.

Patrograd · Apr 24, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

So your solution when faced with a good spike team you can't beat 8v8- for whatever reason- is to sit there and take your beating? I agree with after the match analyzing what went wrong and making build adjustments, but during the match you can't just sit there and play to lose, you have to do what gives you the greatest chance to win.

I guess that what I'm saying is that you should build to beat spike, as it will also give you the best chance to beat balanced. if you cant beat a spike team 8v8 then you wont beat a balanced team of equal ability 8v8.

if you are playing a good balanced team do you split as soon as you see they are balanced?

Splitting may well work against a decent percentage of spike teams, but I'd like to bet that the win percentage is no higher than if you were to split anyway against balanced. Its not the split that is winning you these games, its the other teams inability to cope with split squad tactics, and this would be the same were they spike or not.

the idea behind splitting vs spike is to split their damage. What happens if it is a caster team and they keep five spikers and a monk in one group? You have failed to split their damage, and all you have done is to split your own damage and reduce significantly the chance you have of disrupting their spike.

sure, if you are going to lose anyway then you might as well split and go down fighting, but I think it would be preferable to have a build and to have the tactics and the ability to take them on 8v8. I have spiked (and lost)against many of the best teams in the world, and they never, ever, split unless they are naturally split squad teams that would split were we spike or not.

Thom · Apr 24, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Each spike is different, so the key is identifying where the damage is coming from and find the weakness of the spike. Interrupt enough to bring the spike below 400 and your healing should be fine even without an infuse. You really only need one good guy. Stuff like vital blessing or prot spirt work against a weak spike team, but those aren't the ones that give you trouble. Good rezzing is important since people will die.

EP and now Deer run nasty ranger spikes that your simply not going to beat. TE and iQ both lost to God Milk's "Deer" team in the last few days. A team like that will spike perfectly, remove enchants and move very well. iQ was playing an extremely efficient mixed caster spike at the end of last season. While they got beat in the first round of the tourney, builds like that can dictate the battle as well as other build types.

A spike guild will never win tournements, but they can dominate random ladder play. Your "average" 500 rank spike team is average for a reason, and if attack the spike and control the pace of the game you'll win. If you can control their spike with 6 or 7 guys, split and put them on the defensive. If you get an average team on its heels, it will make a mistake.

sir lockt · Apr 24, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

the idea behind splitting vs spike is to split their damage. What happens if it is a caster team and they keep five spikers and a monk in one group? You have failed to split their damage, and all you have done is to split your own damage and reduce significantly the chance you have of disrupting their spike.

But this would give you a 4vs2 situation against the smallest group. Which should be a fast and decisive victory...

A agree with the ressing part: you should keep the resses comming. Also morale bonusses are extremely important in such a case: res sigs are recharged and your dp will be worked away.

Besides that: a 4 men split should be able to clear out the opposing base, while the "6-man" spike is killing your other team... I think time is against a spike group.

Problem IMO occur when you try to turtle to stop the spike... in such case time is on the spikes side. Also the mental effect of the dying ppl is devestating...

At least thnx for the info.. a lot of nice tips I see!

Patrograd · Apr 24, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

The thing I dont understand is why teams will happily stand toe to toe 8v8 against teams like Te, iB, EviL, EW and RenO, and yet will run for the hills like frightened rabbits at the first sign of Slayers and Scholars putting up Read the Wind. Its kind of amusing in a way.

The teams I mention all run spikes that are vastly more dangerous than anything we or any other ranger or caster spike team could possibly hope to emulate, but because the spike comes from warriors people think they can cope with it in some way easier than they can from rangers? Its bizarre. These teams are the most dangerous thing you will ever meet in GvG, and if you want to split against anything it is this.

I will say again. If you bring the skills and the drills that allow you to stand 8v8 against ranger and caster spike, you will at the same time increase massively the chances you have against these warrior teams, as it is the same skills and routines you will need to beat them.

If you are going to split, then build for split, and split against whoever you are playing. Splitting when you have built and planned for playing 8v8 seems a little self defeating. The spike team in many ways has you where it wants you, worrying about their damage rather than about your own plan.

Quote:

But this would give you a 4vs2 situation against the smallest group. Which should be a fast and decisive victory...

A monk and a water ele with NPC support can hold off most 4 man squads for a surprisingly long time assuming they are both reasonably competent. And then...deep freeze...and you have fallen into the trap. Its a very common error :-)

Quote:

Besides that: a 4 men split should be able to clear out the opposing base, while the "6-man" spike is killing your other team...

The 6 man spike wont be after your other squad, they will for the most part ignore them unless they are somewhere near the flagstand - they will be dealing with the squad that poses them the threat, the team that is in their base. They will possibly in certain circumstances let you kill the outlying archers while they go on a little NPC clearing of their own, but as soon as you look like making a move towards their "money" NPCs then they are going to be after you fast and hard

JR · Apr 24, 2006, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Right, but this is a weakness in your build, and you splitting is adapting because your build cant cope, whereas you should have the skills in your team, as a matter of course, because these are the skills that win games anyway, to take them on 8v8. The skills that beat good spike teams are the same skills that beat good balanced teams. if you are having to split against decent spike teams, then the odds are that you are also losing to the top balanced teams, and it may just be a matter of bringing the right skills to solve both issues.

I am tempted to disagree with you.

I do agree that a good guild can in most cases just take on spike 8 vs 8 and just disrupt it. It is a strong tactic; just get up in their faces straight away and be aggressive as possible. However, there will eventually be a point where you fight an equally skilled spike build. It is entirely possible that no matter what, they will simply beat you in 8 vs 8 through consistantly coordinated and rapid kills.

In this case splitting IS a valid and worthwhile tactic, you just have to know how to split:

They will inevitably have a damage group of four or so spikers and a monk, and a weaker split of two less offensive characters and a monk. You split and send some to harrass their base, and some to harrass at the flag stand. The trick is to NEVER engage their offensive squad, never even get into casting range.

If they are trying to controll the flag with their offensive squad, then you have to make a dual push. Push into their base with your offensive squad, which will force them to pull back to try and deal with it or take losses. While they are falling back, cap the flag and then have your other squad move back out. If they are slack with sending the offensive squad back, then just rock whatever they have back in the base and start dropping NPCs.

You basicly are trying to maintain controll over their movements. They will only have one squad that is really worth being afraid of, and they can't keep that at the flagstand and defending their NPCs all of the time. Played intelligently you will either get controll of morale, or you kill their NPCs.

This is a VoD tactic, winning yourself the NPC advantage whilst running them around and denying them kills. You do have to be very cautious when the team has multiple snares however, always watching your radar to see how close they are getting. Skills like "Charge!" and Windborne Speed will have a major impact aswell.

You of course need to have a build with the ability to split, but that is a lot different than actually building to split.

Of course this is from the perspective of playing against spike, what do you do to get around this style of play when performed effectively Patro?

Patrograd · Apr 24, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Of course this is from the perspective of playing against spike, what do you do to get around this style of play when performed effectively Patro?

A spike team that tries to run the flag with their defensive squad is going to get beaten by any well co-ordinated split squad. The defensive squad must rely on the dais NPCs for protection and vice versa. If they leave each other's company then they are extremely vulnerable, and this for me is poor play.

Typically we we will run loops with our offensive squad - front gate->Flagstand->back gate. This is to force the other side in trying to escape in a predictable direction at a time of our choosing. We will maintain, for as long as there is a threat from ganking, two guys sat tight in there with our BGs, tasked exclusively with keeping those dais NPCs alive at all costs. This group must have snares, we use a water ele with deep freeze and ice spikes for this. As our spike group approaches the back gate, just before we come into radar range, we will call for a deep freeze, and these two guys will rush out and deep freeze/ice spike as many of the gank squad as possible. This is almost always enough to allow our spike squad into range, and they have snares themselves (typically gale and crip shot) and it is very rare for everyone on the gank team to get out alive. if we are successful in killing lets say three, then this gives us the window for a hard push into the enemy base. If we dont kill any, then we just do the loop again and again, until about 20 minutes in when we will start extending the loop to take in enemy base NPCs, although this is very rarely needed tbh.

On cata maps our job is made much easier as the other side relies heavily on the thief, who is usually very, very easy to kill. If we can time this kill properly we can often trap a team of four between us and our base with no way out.

Quote:

However, there will eventually be a point where you fight an equally skilled spike build. It is entirely possible that no matter what, they will simply beat you in 8 vs 8 through consistantly coordinated and rapid kills.

Sure, there are some great spike teams around, as there are some great warrior teams around, and this statement could be apllied to both forms of build equally. And yet, when you see two or three warriors on the other team your natural reaction is not to split, and yet you see three or four rangers and you split, despite the fact that the warriors pose you a far greater threat (if we are talking here about top 100).

Quote:

This is a VoD tactic, winning yourself the NPC advantage whilst running them around and denying them kills

I think I am right in saying that only 2 out of 23 battles this season have gone to VoD for us, which is about the normal percentage. Very few teams are good enough at this to take us to VoD, largely because we move very, very quickly. Spike battles tend to be over really quickly one way or the other.

last night we have played a team, about rank 60 that split against us right from the start. For 10-15 minutes we have run around in loops, killing them pretty happily, gaining a couple of boosts even. Then they have suddenly decided this wasnt working for them (it wasnt) and have just gone for us 8v8. We didnt stand a chance, they had the skills on their team to completely shut us down, we didnt get off a single spike once they stopped running around. last season the same thing happened quite a few times, teams that presumably felt they couldnt fight spike, suddenly deciding after running around for a while that they had nothing to lose and discovering that, after all, they were bringing the skills to beat it, they just didnt know until they tried.

when i watch obs mode I see that almost every team in the top 100, and even beyond, has more than enough spike shutdown. i see loads of blinding flash, loads of blurred vision, loads of diversion, loads of blackout, loads of warrior KDs, loads of gale, loads of distracting and savage shot, loads of enervating charge, loads of spirit and price of failure, loads of shields up, loads of distortion, loads of CoF. Most teams have a healthy spread of these skills, and yet they face a spike team and they split. *shrug*. Fear? As i say, my opinion is that you have much more to fear from a good warrior spike, certainly in the top 100 you do.

Yes, if you stand up to a spike of any description you will probably take casualties, but this is equally true of fighting balanced teams, except that most spike teams are inherently front loaded for the "shock and awe" effect, and dont have half of the defensive ability of your average balanced team. Take a couple of deaths, get stuck in, you will break their backs pretty easily.

Excal · Apr 24, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Just wanted to say sorry for my rather crappy advice it was 10:30am cut me some slack :P